Cairo - After the publishing of his controversial book, 'Al Azhar Documents: What was Published and What was Not’, Egyptian thinker Salah Fadl reveals the secrets behind concealing the renewal of religious discourse documents.
The book ‘Al Azhar Documents: What was Published and What was Not’, written by prominent critic Salah Fadl and published earlier this year caused much controversy as Fadl decided to break his silence regarding the hidden documents of the grand Al-Azhar institute. The documents were supposed to be published since President El-Sisi came to power, and the Grand Imam of Al Azhar called for publishing them to renew the religious discourse but they have never published as of yet.
El Bawaba met with Fadl following his return from Abu Dhabi where he participated in the jury of the tenth season of the program ‘Amir El Shoaraa’ (the King of Poets). Fadl takes us behind the scenes of the writings of the Al Azhar documents following the January revolution telling us why they have never been published. He also tells us about the criticism 'Amir El Shoaraa’ received, and answers several other questions in the following interview:
Why did you break your silence regarding the announcement of Al Azhar’s documents in your new book?
I started writing the Al Azhar documents six years ago, precisely in 2011 following the first meeting between the intellectual circles, the Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar and some senior scientists. This was in May after the January 25 revolution broke out. There were several stages to this project, but the basic idea was our conviction that the revolution had to lead to democracy along with holding free and fair elections, which never happened with the past regimes. We were aware that radical Islamic groups had infiltrated into the poor and naïve classes of people and managed to convince them that religion is the answer to all their problems, and by doing so, the groups could seize power.
Were you certain that the Brotherhood and the Salafis will win the elections back then?
We knew that free elections will show the popularity of the Brotherhood, the Salafis and others, but we thought that their share will never exceed 25%. But the problem was that they won a 70% share which caused the January revolution not to achieve all the results it had intended to. To avoid and be prepared for this, I, along with a group of intellectuals who met with the Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar, proposed issuing a number of documents. The first document discussed the concept of a secular state. It was approved by all parties including the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafis, but only to show their goodwill.
I remember that Dr. Yehya El Gamal, the Prime Minister back then announced that the document now belongs to the State and must be used as the blueprint for any future constitution as it documents all the principles that where later rejected by all the religious movements.
What was your reaction when they won the elections?
When disaster struck and they won 70% during the first elections, I realized that their first aim was going to be restricting freedoms because this was their original aim that would enable them to spread their dark philosophy and enforce their fascist ideology. And so, we wrote the 2nd document defining what 'freedom' is. The document was impressive and included freedom of faith, freedom of scientific research, freedom of speech and the freedom to create art and literature. However, after the Brotherhood took control of the parliament, then Brotherhood member Mohamed Morsy became president, the true colors of these religious groups began to show. They started by attempting to limit women’s rights and freedom and called for firing female workers and/or giving them only parts of their salary.
Is this why you prepared a document especially for women’s rights?
When it became apparent that women will be the first to suffer, we prepared the 3rd document concerned with women’s rights. But some of the female Muslim Brotherhood MPs who attended the discussion rejected the basic principles of the document and called for other issues that restrict women’s freedom and so, the document was never released.
I was forced to announce the making of this document during a private session held by the National Council for Women, but it was never announced at the Grand Azhar. The Brotherhood was ousted, President El-Sisi came to power and called for renewing the religious discourse. And so, we met again and exerted tremendous effort to write a document about renewing religious discourse till we all agreed on a draft. But some members of the Brotherhood as well as other fanatics within the Al-Azhar convinced the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar not to publish it. Consequently, he kept postponing for more than two years, and till now the document has never been published – not due to pressure from the government, but due to pressure from fanatical members within the Al- Azhar.
Does this mean that Brotherhood members still exist in state organizations and especially important institutions like the Grand Azhar?
Of course, but they do not openly admit they belong to the Brotherhood. They just say they want to uphold traditions.
What were the points they disagreed upon and prompted them to not publish the document?
I do not know. We never met again for them to explain why they did not publish it. I do not think it has anything to do with the document, but rather the general spirit. It is obvious that the religious institution of the Al-Azhar, is run by a peaceful and respectable Grand Sheikh, but the institution itself is conservative. Men of religion, by nature, wish to be the rulers of the world, to turn it into a type of 'priesthood' for their livelihood. It is wrong to be drawn into these conflicts of those who want to govern everything according to their narrow concept of religion. And so we came to the conclusion that we must separate religion from the affairs of the state for when religion is involved, it spoils political life and religious life too. There can be no radical reform of religious discourse and culture except by separating religion from politics. This is the essence of everything. We have many of their sermons that prove how ignorant they are on matters of life and religion, and so they spew their poison that causes religious strife and promotes radicalism.
They will never approve the concept of secularism because it limits their power and limits their interference in people’s daily life. They think they know everything and have the ability to control everything, though they know nothing about economics, society or culture. Such issues must be handled by specialists each in their respective field, and men of religion must not interfere. As long as we insist on mixing religion with politics and apply religion in all aspects of life, these regressive thoughts will remain, and more radical groups like ISIS will be created. It is true that there are outside sources funding these groups, however, these groups hold certain ideologies that tear the fabric of Arab and Islamic society and we must abolish this 'Wahabi' ideology, especially the ideologies of El-Qada and ISIS.
Are there members that support
such ideologies inside the Grand Al-Azhar Institute?
Some people have these
tendencies, but while they mean well, they tend to take religious texts too
literally without realizing that times have changed. So, a reinterpretation
of these texts is a must.
You mentioned that they were
most keen on withdrawing the women’s rights document. Why?
Because women are always the
weak point in society, and because women suffer all the shortcomings of society. So their
movement is controlled, and they are prevented from getting an education or
joining the work force. A religious
state always picks women to be their scapegoat because it looks down on women
as a second grade citizens..
How do you deal with this issue in your
book?
I explained and addressed everything to make things clear. I do
not mean to diminish the image of the Al-Azhar Institute for I greatly respect
it. However, I see it our duty to be braver
in dealing with issues.
Did you call for a reformation
of the Al-Azhar Institute?
No, I never called for
this. I am not concerned with characters, but I always call for the total respect of the Grand Imam, as he is the best
candidate to govern the Al-Azhar Institution.
But why haven't the
documents been published till now, despite the calls of the presidency?
I
do not know. You should ask the
president not me. In any case, religious
institutions have always been a sensitive subject and the government is
confused because it is fighting in the name of religion while terrorist
organizations are also fighting in the name of religion. The government deals with honest and
reliable institutions, yet each speaks differently about these terrorist groups. I appreciate Al-Azhar’s keenness on not
calling anyone an infidel, even ISIS, because they are criminals and their
problem is not whether they are religious or not. It is only the naïve who call for labeling ISIS
as infidels or atheists.
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